[17:48:32] I think we have enough, those who join later can catch up [17:48:55] Public channel, public logs [17:49:23] I suppose the beginning is too far back to start, so, let us start at the beginning of why I am here [17:49:50] Alright, so, lately the NPO has been undergoing some turmoil at the top [17:50:17] Moo is going to be stepping down soon, appointing someone to replace him. I'll spare you the trouble of asking and simply state I don't know who [17:50:48] Mary is possible [17:50:54] However, not guarantteed [17:51:15] Vladimir, for example, was the Regent right up until Moldavi left the throne to Dilber [17:51:32] And Moo flat out stated he didn't know for certain who [17:51:46] <+Francesca[NPO]> I don't think it'll be Vladimir. [17:51:52] No, it won't [17:52:03] Vladimir would make a good Emperor if he maintained the activity [17:52:12] But, unfortunately for the NPO, he doesn't [17:52:09] <%Quiz> COOL_AND_SPICY: Zhadum is leaking important NPO information [17:52:17] Not leaking if I am not NPO [17:52:55] Anyhow, as Moo winds down, he has been implementing a number of changes to the government at the end of term, not unlike US presidents [17:53:23] Well, he appointed a number of new IAC members [17:53:43] For those who don't know, IAC is sort of a terminal masters program for NPO veterans [17:54:03] <+Francesca[NPO]> Terminal masters program? You mean, training for IO? [17:54:13] That's what it says on the tin, but no [17:54:51] Most of IAC will never make IO [17:55:26] They dangle the carrot to keep them working, but several have been unofficially blacklisted from ever being IO [17:57:04] Anyhow, why I am here [17:57:38] So, one of the things that had been brewing as of late was Moo was essentially asked to step down by four members of the Imperial Staff, myself among them [17:57:56] Others agreed later it was best and a good deal more said it under their breath where Moo couldn't hear [17:58:08] Cortath, Triyun, and Frawley, in that order [17:58:35] Others, like DM expressed the belief after Moo agreed it would be best for the NPO if he did [17:59:21] Anyhow, as part of the late term changes Moo was forcing through, he appointed Brehon to the IO position vacated by noob5 [17:59:55] This was on the table for some time, I opposed it because, frankly, Brehon had never been an exceptionally good Councilor to begin with [18:00:12] Though, I do admit, I took longer opposing it than I probably should have [18:00:20] <@Lord_of_Destruction> Zhadum - who then should have been promoted? [18:01:26] Well, at the time, Zeta or MaskofBlue I would have said were better choices, or, if they waited a while, Elegarth showed a lot of promise [18:03:13] Ash has some problems getting along with some of the leadership and is too close to Cager for a lot of their comfort [18:03:28] Soly might be possible, but my understanding was he was more Military oriented than IA [18:03:31] Anyhow, so [18:03:46] Fast forward to last night [18:04:06] Zeta came to Mask and myself asking if Brehon was going to be appointed [18:04:15] Since he already knew, I confirmed it for him [18:04:30] <+Francesca[NPO]> To be honest, Zhadum, I deeply respect and trust Zeta. [18:04:35] Don't [18:04:43] Evidently, as I am being informed, the whole thing was a set up orchestrated by Moo from the beginning [18:05:24] Zeta was under orders to come to me with information that was classified, which I then confirmed to him. A poor choice I admit [18:05:54] However, contrary to the assertions Moo is making, I was not the original source of the information, nor did I tell him anything he didn't already know [18:06:30] so he was bait dangled against you to make you look like a leaker, what? [18:06:37] Evidently [18:06:58] Or one of the countless other IOs, or one of the department heads or IAC members who speaks to IOs, or hell, maybe Moo set the whole thing up himself [18:07:04] Who the hell knows where he got it? [18:08:04] another version: Damnit my girlfriend didn't get the position so I am taking my toys and leaving... but not before I become the Martyr o/ Zha [18:08:20] Anyhow, so, believing Zeta to be a friend, I confirmed what he already knew and shared some frustrations with him [18:08:27] Absolutely a mistake in retrospect [18:09:02] With this confirmation, Moo put together a patchwork post of three line snippets mostly from assorted IRC conversations to make it look like I leaked information [18:09:17] Then removed me from my IO position [18:10:06] The speed at which I was demasked and that post was up, before they gave the half hearted defense offer to me indicates they were planning to oust me regardless of how it played out [18:10:54] Literally, within about four seconds of leaving a channel which amounted to the principle's office that I was called into in mid conversation, I was removed from my IO tag and all the top channels [18:11:00] No, efficient doesn't cover it [18:11:11] The only way to do that is to have your finger already on the button [18:11:46] Further, no amount of efficiency could put together that wall of text they posted "explaining" my firing in that amount of time [18:11:49] It was prewritten [18:13:29] <+Zhadum> Anyhow, so, they having fired me for "leaking" I protested the general incompetence of Moo and the Imperials in the general membership forum [18:16:13] <+Zhadum> So, I called them on it in the general area, pointed out their accusations didn't even make sense [18:16:24] <+Zhadum> And in the NPO private channel as well [18:16:36] <+Zhadum> And, after a time, they removed my access to the alliance boards [18:17:32] <+Zhadum> And then I continued in #nsa [18:17:35] <+Zhadum> Then here [18:17:50] <+Zhadum> So, now that you know how I got here, are there any questions in the audience? [18:18:16] Why is it that they wanted you out? [18:18:36] <+Zhadum> No, they wanted me out because I opposed Brehon's appointment and generally thought Moo was a bad leader [18:19:15] <+Zhadum> He got complacent at the top, started appointing friends to top positions instead of people who earned it, and the NPO started falling apart [18:19:30] <+Zhadum> Which is tragic considering how strong he started [18:20:22] <+Francesca[NPO]> Zhadum, did NPO spy? [18:20:35] <+Zhadum> No, NPO did not actually spy, at least not since the very beginning [18:21:19] <%COOL_AND_SPICY> Zhadum: did they have a clandestine information network? [18:21:28] <+Zhadum> No, they didn't have spies [18:21:40] <+Zhadum> One topic at a time [18:21:42] <+Zhadum> Karma war [18:21:43] <+Zhadum> Okay? [18:21:45] <+Zhadum> Okay [18:22:05] <+Zhadum> Alright, the Karma War was in fact all bigwoody's idea [18:22:32] <+Zhadum> I was on skype during the run up to war, and of course the IO channels [18:23:33] <+Zhadum> Anyhow, at first it seemed like a good idea, OV had given a passable CB for attacking them, it would give an opportunity to bring down a lot of the opposition mounting against the NPO [18:23:50] <+Francesca[NPO]> But the attack on Ordo Verde was bound to fail. [18:23:58] <+Francesca[NPO]> Too many allies. [18:23:59] <+Zhadum> We didn't know that at first [18:24:23] <+Zhadum> Because mhawk and bigwoody had their own projections about who would go where [18:24:34] <+Zhadum> Those projections looked largely favorable [18:24:50] <+Zhadum> However, I and a few others noted there was a lot of undecideds on their list [18:25:03] <+Zhadum> And, as we started to run the numbers, it became more and more clear they weren't adding up [18:25:43] <+Zhadum> Well, we had TOP, Polar, and MHA on our side, which kept citadel out of it excepting Old Guard and TOP [18:26:09] <+Zhadum> We also were counting on FARK [18:26:32] <+Zhadum> We expected with us and TOP both, Gramlins would be locked out due to their codex [18:26:44] <+Zhadum> And so MHA would be with us [18:26:52] <@Lord_of_Destruction> zha - they ignore their codex all the time [18:27:00] <+Zhadum> So we learned [18:27:14] <+Zhadum> Anyhow, as we were running the lists, most of us realized the numbers weren't adding up [18:27:30] <+Zhadum> What it ultimately came down to was a skype conversation [18:28:08] <+Zhadum> Bigwoody, yes him, said effectively, his people were demanding a war and that he was going to attack with or without us [18:28:32] <+Zhadum> He was willing to waive the aggression clauses but he was going in [18:28:48] <+Zhadum> And so, because we didn't want to leave him cold, we went in too [18:28:56] <+Zhadum> Knowing it was probably going to be a clusterfuck [18:29:07] <+Zhadum> Then an opportunity presented itself to get out [18:29:09] <+Zhadum> The TOP talks [18:29:53] <+Zhadum> The TOP talks happened when Moo was having shitty interenet, which kept cutting out [18:30:12] <+Zhadum> During the peace negotiations, the last the IO's heard VE had called them off [18:30:29] <+Zhadum> Moo was talking effectively in private with OV, VE, and Torn [18:31:46] <+Zhadum> Peace negotiations, the ones we attacked in the middle of [18:32:05] <+Zhadum> We assumed the talks had ended, going nowhere, and, as time ran out we didn't know anything had changed [18:32:15] <+Zhadum> So, Umbrae ultimately gave the go ahead to attack [18:32:45] <+Zhadum> Because of a communications breakdown and the general incompetence of sending one person with faulty internet to handle all peace negotiations [18:32:44] <+Francesca[NPO]> How did you find out that Sethb was spying on NPO? [18:33:14] <+Zhadum> As I recall mhawk gave us that [18:33:21] <+Francesca[NPO]> And how did mhawk find out? [18:33:26] <+Zhadum> Dunno [18:33:51] <+Zhadum> I never asked, didn't seem important until way past the point it would have been helpful [18:34:28] <+Zhadum> We considered mhawk to be a reliable source so we didn't feel it necessary to do any checks past him [18:35:16] <+Zhadum> Anyhow, so that is how the Karma War started [18:35:59] <+Zhadum> In short, because Moo failed to keep us informed with developments and so the IOs, completely unaware that anything was happening on that front or that anything had changed, namely Umbrae, launched the attack [18:37:33] <+Zhadum> So, that is how the start of the Karma War looked from our side, what next? [18:38:21] <+essenia> <+Zhadum> We also were counting on FARK [18:38:24] <+essenia> for something? [18:39:10] <+Zhadum> Yes, we weren't aware the entire relationship between FARK and the NPO was based on private interaction between Dilber and they, Dilber having fucked off some time before without ever keeping up relations [18:39:10] <&Azaghul[MK]> and then the TORN and NPNO treaties with MK [18:39:24] <+Zhadum> We considered you a wildcard, but were hopeful [18:40:04] <+essenia> after stealing their tech, trying to destroy them and diplomatically isolating them [18:40:12] <+essenia> you saw them as wildcard [18:40:15] <+Zhadum> Yep [18:40:27] <+Zhadum> Could have landed on either side depending on treaty breaks [18:40:57] So did you guys really expect Polar help NPO in the Karma War? [18:40:58] <+Zhadum> Not through us, but through other treaties we thought might break our way [18:41:12] <+Zhadum> Grub said straight up he was going to enter militarily on our side [18:41:32] <+essenia> he probably added some sneaky caveat [18:41:35] <+Zhadum> We had been talking extensively to him beforehand, he gave us his word, he lied [18:42:29] <+Zhadum> In short, we put far more stock in the MDP web than was warranted [18:44:52] <&Azaghul[MK]> TOP-MHA-NpO would have made the balance a lot different [18:44:53] <+Zhadum> Right, and as I said, a lot of us caught on to the web not adding up before we went in [18:45:02] <+Zhadum> Bigwoody forced our hand [18:45:22] <+Zhadum> MHA was critical for keeping Gramlins out [18:45:44] <+essenia> but karma would get absolutely destroyed up top by iron, npo, TOP [18:45:44] <+Zhadum> Moderately if things went how early estimates had projected [18:46:25] <+Zhadum> We were expecting a lot of the mid range alliances to stand back if we were able to take out some of the heavy hitters quickly and have the rest in on our side [18:46:46] <+Zhadum> Get a lot of high profile alliances in quickly to intimidate the bandwaggon [18:47:08] <+Zhadum> At least get them to drag their feet by which point we had hoped to have one or more of the big alliances on the other side broken [18:48:29] So the Karma war was not the NPO getting its "punishment" early on purpose to avoid a worse one in the future? [18:48:43] <+Zhadum> God no, we tried [18:49:12] <+Zhadum> The whole surrendering to Karma on the first day attempt was an attempt to get out of it for that purpose [18:49:43] <+Zhadum> The war itself was just a fuckup that has pretty much ensured the NPO will never be a power again, not without some serious government turnover at any rate [18:49:57] <+Zhadum> Starting with cleaning out the majority of the FA department [18:50:25] <+essenia> NPO will probably be power by next year [18:50:30] <+Zhadum> Unlikely [18:50:33] <+essenia> the next major bloc war won't involve them [18:50:38] <+Zhadum> Power is created through foreign affairs [18:51:28] <+Zhadum> I am not going to pretend they are horrible, horrible monster, but all the same I am not going to excuse their failings [18:52:33] <+Zhadum> Anyhow [18:52:35] Zha, was did the NPO feel threatened by Vox/BC/sponge? [18:52:44] <+Zhadum> Not initially [18:53:00] <+Zhadum> Mostly we thought they were a loudmouth fad [18:53:25] Vox was good at generating paranoia and mistrust among those that they felt were there targets [18:53:44] <+Zhadum> Not Vox exactly but a few members, for reasons I am not able to elaborate on, even here [18:55:13] <+Zhadum> No, Blackstone was never considered to be anything but a joke [18:55:53] <@Lord_of_Destruction> zha - were the people who were expelled for being vox/blackstone ever actually vox or blackstone? [18:56:01] <+Zhadum> Oh yes [18:56:45] <+Zhadum> I'd say within margin of error, none were deliberately ousted as Vox when we didn't think they were [19:00:17] <+essenia> sponge is a dick->NPO goes around paying back sponge for being a dick->outrage! [19:01:14] <+Zhadum> Titodafarmer, as I recall he got caught due to his IP being found on server logs before a screenshot came out [19:03:12] <+Zhadum> It was matched by timestamps, the method itself was actually very reliable [19:04:23] <+Francesca[NPO]> What caused Doitzel to turn, zhadum? [19:04:46] <+Zhadum> Seems to be he just didn't like what Dilber was doing with Polar [19:06:16] <+Zhadum> Well, in fairness, Sponge had fucked us over quite a bit first [19:06:40] <+Zhadum> He told Moo point blank he engineered the Unjust War just to get rid of NPO's allies so he would be the dominant partner in the relationship [19:07:08] <+Francesca[NPO]> So as a result of that, NPO engineered the War of the Coalition? [19:07:37] <+Zhadum> Pretty much, attacking their reputation in the NPO, attacking their ties to other alliances, then having them rolled [19:07:45] <+Zhadum> In a manner of speaking [19:07:54] <+Zhadum> Dilber engineered most of it [19:08:03] <+Zhadum> With Umbrae and myself supporting [19:08:11] <+Zhadum> We voted for it [19:08:21] <+Zhadum> We just waited until GGA and IRON voted first [19:08:36] <+Zhadum> Then immediately brought in MCXA and Echelon to fill the void [19:09:19] <+essenia> is best compared to PC's with TPF [19:09:23] <+Zhadum> Whitney and Bobby [19:09:36] <+Zhadum> Which is which depended on the leader and the week [19:10:59] <+Zhadum> Well, Grub hates the NPO according to the posts Ursarkar keeps leaking out of their forums, same with most of their leaders [19:11:43] <+Zhadum> A lot of the thought is NpO and NsO are just waiting for NPO to recover some so they can be the ones to kill it [19:12:09] <+essenia> NpO and NSO want citadel done first [19:13:06] Zhadum: do you think that NPO losing polar caused it downfull? [19:13:21] <+Zhadum> Losing Polar? No [19:13:32] <+Zhadum> We held on to Polar too long [19:13:44] <+Zhadum> One of the things that really fucked us was not letting them die sooner [19:14:13] <+Zhadum> Strained relations with TOP and IRON horribly, then we compounded it by signing a new MDP with them without telling TOP or IRON [19:15:30] How big was NPO roll in trying to get PC destroyed ? [19:15:56] <+Zhadum> PC? Poison Clan? [19:16:05] <+Zhadum> We had nothing to do with that one [19:16:19] <&Azaghul[MK]> tells you how much he knows about PC when he has to confirm the acronym [19:17:01] <%COOL_AND_SPICY> Zhadum: how good of an ally was GGA? [19:17:15] <+Zhadum> Well, initially it was pretty good, kinda [19:17:40] <+Zhadum> There whole Elder Council thing was something Dilber came up with to keep them loyal to us [19:18:09] <+Zhadum> GGA was solid until they lost most of the members friendly to the NPO [19:18:21] <+Zhadum> Some like Bilrow joined the NPO, others just left [19:18:17] <%COOL_AND_SPICY> Zhadum: do you know about the secret terms in the War of the Coalition? [19:18:34] <+Zhadum> To my knowledge there have never been secret terms used ever [19:19:02] <+Zhadum> As I said, to my knowledge [19:18:11] who was NPO best ally? [19:20:14] <+Zhadum> The only secret term I may or may not know about was Ivan stepping down as Emperor following GPW might have been one, it was rumored to be but I was never told [19:20:27] <+Zhadum> Best ally? Invicta probably [19:20:33] <+Zhadum> Maybe SSSW18 [19:20:59] <+Zhadum> They jumped straight into the war with barely having to be asked [19:20:54] <+Francesca[NPO]> TPF would probably be our bestally.. [19:21:08] <+Zhadum> Nah, TPF tried to fuck us until mhawk came back [19:21:20] <+Zhadum> If mhawk were to ever leave, TPF wouldn't even be an ally [19:18:52] <@Lord_of_Destruction> why did people like dm and bilrow rise to the top so fast? [19:21:52] <+Zhadum> As for bilrow and DM, it was conditions for them to join the NPO [19:22:06] <+Zhadum> We agreed to fast track them to leadership positions if they joined up [19:21:46] <+essenia> after the war of the coalition, a number of NpO members were kicked out or banned from govt [19:23:02] <+Zhadum> Sponge, Random, and... maybe slashes, don't recall [19:23:09] <+Zhadum> Pretty sure that was it [19:23:37] <+Zhadum> Yeah, pretty much, Katsumi was forced to the outside for supporting Polar [19:23:54] <+essenia> penchuk, ski, hizzy [19:24:22] <+essenia> those were people banned from certain things [19:25:59] <%Fallen_Fool[NpO]> Is it a coincidence that SP came out of retirement [19:26:18] <+Zhadum> Yeah, SP coming out is his own thing [19:26:23] <+Zhadum> Nothing to do with this [19:26:22] <+essenia> will moo continue as emperor for the indefinite future? [19:26:29] <+Zhadum> Good question [19:26:51] <+Zhadum> In theory he was going to step down by the end of the month, however, he was also going to have a replacement selected by the end of last week [19:27:03] <+Zhadum> Moo has a history of doing that, however [19:28:29] Are you saying he has considered resigning before zha? [19:28:33] <+Zhadum> Oh yes [19:28:57] <+Zhadum> He was going to resign in the middle of the war, then when the war ended, then during the august revolution, then the end of this month [19:29:24] <+Zhadum> This time though most of the IO staff either asked him to directly or said it was a good thing when he hinted he might [19:29:58] <+Zhadum> There is a lot of infighting at the IO level, however, it isn't to the degree of tearing itself apart [19:30:18] <+Zhadum> Honestly, that is probably the reason I was made an example of, I opposed Moo's clique with Triyun [19:30:38] <+Zhadum> FA constitutes its own bloc [19:30:47] <+Zhadum> Triyun, Vektor, and Dilber [19:30:59] <+Zhadum> They were going to leave the NPO to form their own alliance if Moo didn't step down [19:31:05] <+essenia> what was up with triyun and dilber doing to this new aa? [19:31:10] <+Zhadum> Probably aligned with them, but more loosely [19:31:51] Frawley's retired [19:31:55] <+Zhadum> No, Frawley stepped back and then was removed from power [19:32:49] <+Zhadum> On the other side you have Cortath, Loucifer, Umbrae in theory, though his loyalties drift a bit [19:33:13] <+Zhadum> LordStrider may be quiting, SDRD is usless [19:33:28] <+Zhadum> Vladimir is as always above the fray [19:33:35] <+Zhadum> Never takes sides [19:34:33] <+Zhadum> Vladimir was about the only person in the game I had and have real admiration for [19:35:06] <+Zhadum> More or less in the other channel I called out Moo on how he was running the alliance [19:35:53] <+Zhadum> Pointed out the folly of using proper channels to lodge a complaint when the proper channels are created and maintained by those with every interest in not listening to complaints [19:38:43] <%Fallen_Fool[NpO]> Also Zha: Moo taking power back from Ivan in August 2007, coup y/n? [19:39:06] <+Zhadum> Complicated, but I'm going to go with no, though it could have been one [19:39:41] Do you wish you would have supported Ivan? [19:39:53] <+Zhadum> No, I wouldn't have supported Ivan [19:39:58] <+Zhadum> What happened was this [19:40:24] <+Zhadum> Sponge and Blackadder came to Moo, started talking him up about personal problems, RL personal problems, and then said he needed to step down [19:40:37] <+Zhadum> Ivan came to him later and more or less said he could take over [19:41:05] <+Zhadum> Moo took this to mean, with Sponge being there, that since Sponge was hosting our forum at the time, he was going to force Moo out one way or another [19:42:12] <+Zhadum> So, Moo stepped aside because he didn't want to trigger a civil war at the time [19:42:33] <+Zhadum> However, he felt it was under pressure that was inescapable [19:43:19] <+Zhadum> He spoke to a number of people at the IO level about it, the circumstances of the transfer came out, and we agreed Moo had been couped and so formed a plan to take back the NPO [19:43:50] <+Zhadum> We set up on SynIRC and discussed how to get it back, settling ultimately that whoever controled the forums controled the alliance [19:44:05] <+Zhadum> And so, a plan was hatched to spirit the forums away in the middle of the night [19:44:23] <+Zhadum> At this point Moo waffled on whether to go through with the plan several times, [19:44:34] <+Zhadum> He wasn't certain taking the forums was moral or somesuch [19:44:56] <+Zhadum> And so, we set up a second channel on IRC to continue planning without him [19:45:35] <+Zhadum> We decided there if Moo wouldn't step up and take it back, we would set up an IO council to run the NPO until a new Emperor could be appointed [19:45:45] <+Zhadum> Moo did decide to go through with it, so the rest is history [19:46:41] <+Zhadum> Never taking sides [19:46:27] <+Zhadum> As I said about Vladimir, he was always above the fray [19:48:30] <+Zhadum> I have no interest in setting myself up as an anti-NPO organization or even involving myself in one [19:48:55] <+Zhadum> At the moment, I am just going to set straight the history books and decide what I want to do from there [19:51:13] <+Zhadum> That is half of how the NPO has always operated, the more mysterious and exciting and smoke and mirrors, the less we are understood, the more powerful we seem [19:51:50] <+Zhadum> Unjust [19:52:00] <+Zhadum> I touched on that earlier, but that was a bitch for us [19:52:33] <+Zhadum> More or less, the unjust path formed and we didn't know quite what to make of it. We weren't certain what it was or where it was going to stand relative to us [19:52:34] <+essenia> did NPO do what they did because you figured GOONS would betray you? [19:52:45] <+essenia> or did you just do it because they were an uncertain force? [19:52:46] <+Zhadum> Not GOONS explicitly, but their bloc [19:53:25] <+Zhadum> Mostly what happened there, Sponge aggitated with GOONS to the point of war, pulling themselves and GGA apart from them [19:54:13] <+Zhadum> We got stranded by treaties in UJW in between polar and GOONS, ended up neutral until GOLD [19:54:51] <+Zhadum> Thing of that was we were asked not to join ~ by Sponge [19:55:33] <+Zhadum> First he said it was so that Polar could prove they were capable of fighting without big brother, then he said it was to make us sit on the sidelines while he dismantled our allies [19:55:52] <+Zhadum> Probably would have had to from a realpolitik standpoint [19:53:19] ...exactly how much information is kept from the members of Pacifica [19:53:28] <+Zhadum> Oh, a shit ton [19:53:43] <+Zhadum> The average NPO member hasn't clue one what is going on in the NPO at any given time [19:55:58] Zhadum what would you say is kept in the dark most by the NPO's leadership [19:56:10] <+Zhadum> Foreign affairs for example [19:56:26] <+Zhadum> Very few in NPO know that we are trying to buddy up to TOP right now [19:58:17] <+Zhadum> There is even some talk of deliberately joining the losing side of the next bloc war to prove the NPO learned its lesson and isn't really a threat anymore [19:58:58] <+Zhadum> Independent projects [19:59:31] <+Zhadum> Right now the FA strategy of the NPO is to try to make itself look as not menacing as possible [19:59:48] <+Zhadum> Make people forget it exists to it can quietly rebuild and reconquer the CN world [20:01:25] <+Zhadum> The point is the idea right now is to put on a face of "change" so they will be allowed to rebuild into the former power they were [20:01:42] <+Zhadum> Most of it is smoke and mirrors [20:01:58] <+Zhadum> Dilber suggested changing the emperor to give that impression [20:02:08] <+Zhadum> Which resulted in a huge spat between him and Moo [20:03:32] <+Zhadum> Always plotting, certainly [20:03:48] <+Zhadum> 90% of what gets decided on is never actually done however [20:04:00] <+Zhadum> Most of the rest is half implemented and forgotten [20:04:28] <+Zhadum> But yeah, every move they make is an attempt to regain lost power and glory and control the world [20:04:45] <+Zhadum> Often they just drop shit because people lose interest [20:05:11] <+Zhadum> Nobody posts in the thread a couple days, people forget, something else comes up [20:05:44] <+Zhadum> You see it when it comes out, like the MK PIAT pissed off the BR something fierce [20:06:03] <+Zhadum> As for attacking MK, I don't think it was ever really considered [20:06:17] <+Zhadum> FA wanted to lure you in with a PIAT [20:06:23] <+Zhadum> Then eventually gain control [20:07:02] <+Zhadum> Polls in the BR are pretty useless [20:08:55] <+Zhadum> A lynch mob shows up early voting to kill whoever, IO posts in defense, everyone votes against and half the people who voted for ask to change their votes [20:11:23] With all that you know, how would you fix it all. Whast the golden answer? [20:11:47] <+Zhadum> At this point there is no Golden answer [20:11:59] <+Zhadum> There might have been eight or nine months ago [20:12:44] <+Zhadum> The problame now is manifold, first, regardless of however much blame is justified, everyone hates Moo abroad [20:12:55] <+Zhadum> He needed to step down months ago, but really needs to now [20:13:06] <+Zhadum> Second, axe the foreign affairs team [20:13:20] <+Zhadum> Triyun is pretty much the worst thing to ever happen to the NPO [20:13:53] <+Zhadum> His foreign affairs strategy, if it can be called a strategy, was what largely lead to the war [20:14:24] <+Zhadum> Third, real reforms in how the government is run [20:14:55] <+Zhadum> Right now, one of the biggest problems, one severely enhanced by Moo, is that the departments are pretty much operated as independent fiefdoms [20:15:33] <+Zhadum> Steps need to be taken to step up internal auditing, enhance coordination between departments, and create interaction and spot checking [20:15:50] <+essenia> NPO needs competent IOs [20:15:51] <+Zhadum> True, but Moo makes it worse [20:16:17] So as a long standing IO why didn't you just do those things [20:16:23] <+Zhadum> For example, when IAC was created, it was initially set up to look in on and look over the departments, find problems, offer suggestions [20:16:30] <+Zhadum> I tried, I was overruled at every opportunity [20:16:51] <+Zhadum> Triyun in particular absolutely venomously opposed any attempts for anyone to look at what FA was doing [20:17:12] <+Zhadum> It then became optional to department heads to accept or not accept IAC spot checking [20:17:36] <+Zhadum> Which led to FA, then Bilrow and others, cutting themselves more and more off from the rest of the Order [20:17:50] <+Zhadum> Ultimately, this is probably going to blow up like it did with Anthony, again [20:18:17] <+Zhadum> Just reading the forums, seeing what could be improved, seeing what is working well and seeing if it can be applied to other departments [20:18:48] repeating an unanswered question since you were busy discussing factionalization: What're your thoughts on the GATO-1V war/CB? [20:18:58] <+Zhadum> Triyun pushed hard to make that kind of help optional, and then opted FA out of it, followed by MilCom, which makes the whole thing rather pointless [20:19:28] <+Zhadum> In and of itself, CK going back probably wouldn't have caused the war, nor should it, we'd have been pissed, made a show, but not really done anything [20:19:51] <+Zhadum> It was the run around and hostility Barabula gave after the fact that ultimately caused us to decide to go in [20:20:07] <+Zhadum> Technically, it was a valid CB, but it was only acted on because Barabula pissed us off [20:20:20] <+Zhadum> Hmmm [20:20:29] <+Zhadum> I'm going to have to stop using "us" [20:20:30] <+essenia> zhad: what exactly was the status of NpO after the OoO was canceled in terms of protection [20:20:51] <+Zhadum> How do you mean? [20:21:18] <+essenia> TOP and gromlins wanted at NpO, but NPO told them to chill [20:21:24] <+essenia> and then NPO revoked that after awhile [20:21:37] <+Zhadum> Yeah [20:21:48] <+Zhadum> Pretty much sums it up [20:21:55] <+essenia> was there a reason for that or some hope of improvement? [20:22:15] <+Zhadum> We hoped Sponge would be forced out of the way and someone else would improve relations [20:22:49] <+Zhadum> BUt as FF said, it was eventually too costly in terms of relations with TOP and IRON to continue [20:23:06] <+essenia> IRON wanted to actually kill polar? [20:23:20] <+Zhadum> They wanted blood, badly [20:24:28] <+Zhadum> Mostly over Sponge acting like an ass to IRON leadership in the one vision channels [20:23:57] Zha, what techniques did NPO use to identify spies? [20:24:49] <+Zhadum> Just checking server logs for access times for screenshots [20:25:27] <+Zhadum> Check when the post was accessed on the forum and when the screenshot was leaked out [20:25:31] <+essenia> they can tell when you're viewing a page [20:25:35] <+Zhadum> ^ [20:28:29] Oh, furthermore, how do the Praetorian Guard identify rerolls? [20:28:51] <+Zhadum> Depends on the reroll [20:29:40] <+Zhadum> We do an IP check against our own forum, also email addresses, sometimes they come right out and tell us, or tell allies to who tell us [20:30:44] Also, what are your views on Doitzel these days? [20:30:49] <+Zhadum> No, nothing like that [20:31:05] <+Zhadum> Doitzel. That's a tough one [20:31:50] <+Zhadum> Doitzel, I felt and still feel he genuinely betrayed my trust [20:32:22] <+Zhadum> And from what followed, there was a lot of bad blood created that will never go away [20:32:38] <+Zhadum> However, I regretted then, and still regret today losing him as a friend [20:32:52] <+Zhadum> We were very good friends once and that is something I miss [20:32:59] <+Zhadum> I sincerely do [20:34:56] <+essenia> what about ivan? [20:35:00] <+essenia> and NSO? [20:35:54] <+Zhadum> NPO doesn't trust NSO, figures they are out to kill them at some point [20:36:11] <+Zhadum> Ivan gets the same treatment [20:36:08] NSO is stagnating fast Z'ha [20:36:56] There's too much pride at stake there for them to disband though [20:42:54] <+essenia> zhadum: of all the IOs, who would you say was most influential? [20:43:08] <+Zhadum> Right now, Triyun [20:43:32] <+Zhadum> He gets to do pretty much whatever he wants [20:55:17] Were NPO genuinely interested in befriending Legion? [20:55:31] <+Zhadum> Depends on who in the NPO you spoke to [20:55:49] <+Zhadum> Some wanted us to milk them and kill them, some wanted to befriend them [20:55:55] Zhadum what was NPOs real motives behind the Green war? [20:56:06] <+Zhadum> Which green war [20:56:25] CIS/VE [20:56:40] <+Zhadum> Vlad had no opinion that I recall, Moo was largely in favor of killing but seemed to change somewhere along the line to favor befriending, Bak was more moderate [20:59:37] <+Zhadum> As for the green war, mostly we didn't like it but didn't want to alienate GGA, so we joined with them [21:00:03] to what extent did NPO hunt down its enemies after GW1? [21:00:04] Like Legion? [21:00:30] <+Zhadum> For many, like myself, that was extremely strong driving force [21:00:50] So you took out VE and moved CIS because GGA felt isolated on green? [21:01:08] <+Zhadum> We took out VE because, long and short, GGA asked us to [21:03:18] Is there large scale internal conflict in NPO leadership at the moment, Zhadum? [21:04:33] <+Zhadum> I wouldn't say a large scale one [21:05:19] <+Zhadum> There is a somewhat serious schism as to what the NPO leadership is going to be that could explode depending on the next Emperor, but my guess is part of the reason I was set up as I was was as a warning to the rest of them [21:46:13] Legion? [21:46:19] <+Zhadum> Legion is still my favorite [21:47:02] <+Zhadum> When I was Viceroy they were great to work with, good people genuinely willing to make sacrifices for the good of their alliance and people who live up to their word [21:47:45] <&James_I|MK> what are your thoughts on MK? [21:48:27] <+Zhadum> Not sure yet, need time to sort residual NPO thoughts and filtered propaganda from what they are really like [21:49:10] <+Zhadum> A running gag in the NPO is "To say MK is LUE 2.0 would be to falsely imply they have had a full updgrade"